Well, now that we’re done recapping Parts 1-3, we’re excited to dive back into the story proper! This week we’ll be covering the first three interlude chapters of this section. We’ll spend most of our time with Venli, with a brief stop to see how laundry is best done. Thrilling, I know. It’s worthwhile to note that, though we’re all super excited about the reading Sanderson did at SDCC, we will not be discussing it or any aspects of it here in the reread (and we ask that you don’t in the comments, either). Many readers enjoy going into the next book of the series entirely blind, and we wouldn’t want to spoil anything for them. So please be considerate and keep your comments about unreleased material to the Tor postings specifically regarding them!
Reminder: We’ll potentially be discussing spoilers for the entire novel in each reread. If you haven’t read ALL of Oathbringer, best to wait to join us until you’re done.
In this week’s reread we also mention some things from Aether of Night in the Cosmere Connections section, but since we can’t remember much, we didn’t discuss it much. Still, if you haven’t read it, you may wish to give that section a pass.
Chapter Recap
WHO: Venli and Mem
WHERE: A small town outside Kholinar, Vedenar, Kholinar
WHEN: While Venli’s sections happen chronologically (the day after the fall of Kholinar, 1174.2.3.4), Mem’s chapter actually happens much earlier, at 1174.1.7.5—a few days after Ishnah starts training Gaz and Shallan’s other squires as spies.
Truth, Love, and Defiance
Titles
Envoy
L: Venli is engaging in her duties as an envoy primarily in this chapter, hence… the title.
Mem
L: As with most minor character interludes, the chapter title here is simply the character’s name. However, it’s fun to note that this is a tuckerization of one of Sanderson’s employees and friends—her official title is “Minion of All Things Spectacular!” She does most of the customer service email and trains the other minions. She enjoys throwing henchmen into the on-site volcano when things aren’t done right. She runs the booths at conventions and can always be found helping at local events. She is known for her blue hair and witty comments. She has worked for Dragonsteel for almost six years. She was the first minion hired and loves her job! (So far as I know, though, she isn’t super hung up on laundry.)
True Labor Begins
“Child, you haven’t even begun. Those little villages were practice. Today, your true labor begins.”
Heralds
Interlude 7
Vedeledev (Vedel), Loving/ Healing. Edgedancers. Role: Healer
Kalak, aka Kelek. Resolute/Builder. Willshapers. Role: Maker
A: I’m having a hard time figuring out why Vedel is here; the best I can guess is that she represents the healing of the former parshmen to become Singers. Kalak, on the other hand, is most likely a hint at the nature of the little spren who secretly travels with Venli.
Interlude 8
Chach, aka Chanarach (Chana). Brave/Obedient. Dustbringers. Role: Guard
Shalash (Ash), Creative/Honest. Herald of Beauty. Lightweavers.Role: Artist.
L: It’s pretty obvious why Ash is here, as she’s actually physically here in this chapter, destroying more likenesses of herself. As for Chach… I’d venture a guess that it’s because Mem seems to pretty obedient.
A: You could stretch it to say that Mem also guards Mraize’s image, the way she cares so thoroughly for his clothing. On the other hand, it’s been speculated that Ash will become a Dustbringer herself, so… maybe it’s another hint!
Buy the Book


Fate of the Fallen
Interlude 9
Jezrien, Herald of Kings. Windrunners. Protecting/Leading. Role: King.
L: This chapter is so short that I don’t really know what we’re to make of Jezrien being the main Herald. Maybe because the Singers are going to have to begin the task of leading all of these people, both listener/singer and Alethi, within the walls?
A: Honestly, my best guess is the Windrunning, with the Fused flying their pet Regal to Kholinar. It could also be a reminder of the fact that Jezrien lives in Kholinar, and they’re liable to run up against him soon.
Icon
The Singer always (so far) indicates Venli’s POV, so that is the obvious signature for Interludes 7 and 9.
The Double Eye of the Almighty is the generic Interlude icon, and is used everywhere that something more significant is not needed.
Stories & Songs
Time to add to our running tally of Listener Rhythms—Curiosity, Awe, Peace, Pleading, Skepticism, Appreciation, Anxiety, Consolation, Praise, Reprimand, Mourning, Lost, Longing.
ADDED: Excitement, Amusement, Irritation, Resolve
For the Voidbringers, we’ve got: Rhythm of the Terrors, Craving, Command, Fury, Satisfaction, Derision, Spite, Abashment, Destruction, Agony
ADDED: Conceit, Ridicule, Subservience
At least her new form—envoyform—was tall, the tallest she’d ever worn. It was a form of power, and brought strange abilities, primarily the ability to speak and understand all languages.
L: Well, that’s handy. Especially if you’re acting as an envoy!
A: It seems to share a Surge with Bondsmiths, using Adhesion on a Cognitive (or is it Spiritual?) level to form Connection and speak other languages. (I find it interesting to see the overlap between the Fused/Regal powers and those of the Knights Radiant, like the Windrunning effect of some Fused, which we’ve been seeing since the end of Part One, or this Connection.)
AP: It’s also interesting to note that this form is very tall, which would also be useful for an envoy. Much easier to persuade a crowd when they can see you!
The people gathered around the wagon bore thick lines of marbling—of red and either black and white. Venli’s own white and red was far more delicate, with intricate swirls.
L: I always like seeing the differences in the marbling of the skin of the parsh/Singers!
AP: I agree! I keep trying to find significance to particular patterns and color combos, but I don’t have anything yet. It is interesting that it seems that Venli’s own pattern may have shifted with this form, becoming more delicate and intricate. This surprises me because I had thought of the patterns as a “fingerprint” that was unique to each singer and allowed for recognition when switching among forms. How much of a change is this from her prior marbling?
The listeners were to be the foundation myth of his growing empire: the last of the old generation, who had fought bravely against the Alethi, then sacrificed themselves to free their enslaved brothers and sisters.
L: It’s a very compelling and heroic tale, for sure.
A: Interesting that Venli acknowledges (if only to herself) that it’s mostly a lie. Or, “it’s the version Odium instructed her to tell”—which amounts to the same thing.
AP: PR specialists would call that “spin”. ;)
Hauntingly, the narrative said that Venli’s people were now extinct, save herself.
L: Truth, or just another of Odium’s lies?
A: Hmmm. As I recall, we don’t actually know what happened to the remainder of Venli’s stormforms—how many actually survived Narak, and how many still survive. We know some were taken over by Fused… but we only know of eight. The other thing we don’t know, and I hope we learn in the next book, is what happened to Thude, Venli’s mother, and the rest of the Listeners who refused stormform. I really want them to have survived…
AP: Unknown! This may be what Venli actually believes, but we have no evidence one way or the other.
We had named ourselves listeners because of the songs we heard. These are your heritage, but you are not to merely listen, but sing.
L: And so a new “nation” is named.
A: Interestingly enough, Venli refers to “the songs we heard”—but those songs were also what she now contemptuously refers to as the old, inferior rhythms, and in her Interludes so far, she’s had trouble even remembering the old rhythms. That begins to change in this chapter, I think.
AP: I wonder what effect it will have to have groups attuned to two separate varieties of rhythms? I expect this to have ramifications down the road.
She’d learned there were three levels in the hierarchy of Odium’s people. There were these common singers, who wore the ordinary forms Venli’s people had used. Then there were those called Regals, like herself, who were distinguished by forms of power—created by bonding one of several varieties of Voidspren. At the top were the Fused—thought she had trouble placing spren like Ulim and the others. They obviously outranked the common singers, but what of the Regals?
L: This is particularly interesting to note considering Sanderson’s latest reading at San Diego Comic Con, but we won’t be discussing that in depth here in case you want to avoid spoilers.
Her people had spent generations struggling to discover new forms, and here these people were given a dozen different options? How could they value that gift without knowing the struggle?
L: This is a pretty poignant question, and one that’s been asked by older generations throughout time. How can we truly appreciate smartphones for instance, without knowing the struggle of early computers? (To put a more geeky slant on it, these kids these days with their Overwatch and Minecraft don’t know how good they have it! They never had to play Atari!)
A: I think it goes a lot deeper than smartphones and computers, though. We saw only a little of their struggle in Words of Radiance, where everyone was taking their turn trying to make some sort of art in the hope of attracting creationspren. Eshonai told us they had spent many, many years in dullform, avoiding any forms that might get the attention of the Unmade. It’s better than slaveform, but not by a lot. There were no brilliant scientists or philosophers or anything else; they barely had enough mental capacity to do more than survive on their own.
After many years—we don’t know how many—they finally regained mateform and workform, and then, through more generations of searching, they added nimbleform and eventually warform. Each new spren they were able to attract was a result of hundreds of people trying to attract the right kind of spren to form a new bond. No wonder she’s frustrated—her people tried for hundreds of years to find these spren, and now they’re plentiful and easy for the singers to attract and bond.
Perhaps she should be happy for them, but that kind of selflessness is not (yet) part of Venli’s personality.
AP: It also highlights the difference between Eshonai and Venli. The former was dedicated to finding new forms to help her people, and would have been happy for them to see those efforts succeed. The latter is thinking of herself and what benefit she personally gains from these forms. Venli resents others receiving a benefit they didn’t “earn”.
Diagrams & Dastardly Designs
Two of them stood in a doorway Mem passed, a man and woman speaking quietly. Both wore swords, and though they didn’t interrupt their conversation as the washerwomen passed, they watched.
L: Really curious about these two. Are they people we know already? Worldhoppers? Who knows?!
A: Gah. We have no way of knowing—which drives me nuts! We just don’t know very many of the Ghostbloods, and there’s no description of these two. I guess that means they don’t matter much except to let us know that there are a number of them here.
“Finally! The masterpiece of the Oilsworn was all it took, was it? Excellent!” Mraize stuffed out the confused guards, then pulled the door shut. He didn’t even seem to notice Mem.
“Ancient One, would you care for something to drink?”
…
“I know where Talenelat is,” Mraize said.
Pom froze.
“Yes… let’s have that drink, shall we?” Mraize asked. “My babsk has been eager to speak with you.”
L: So many questions here, but I’ll start with… who the heck is Mraize’s babsk? (Which, reminder, is a word similar to “teacher.”)
A: Back in Words of Radiance Iyatil claims that Mraize is her student, and I don’t know anything to contradict that. For the time being, at least, I think we can accept that she is the aforementioned babsk, though I don’t know why she might be so eager to talk to Ash.
L: As a reminder… Do we know where Talenelat is, at this moment? Last we saw of him he’d vanished from Dalinar’s care, right?
A: That’s correct. At the end of Words of Radiance, we saw Amaram hustling Taln into a coach, after smuggling him out of the monastery in Dalinar’s warcamp through a Shardblade-cut hole in the back wall. It also appeared that the Ghostbloods weren’t best pleased, since Iyatil was busy shooting darts at Amaram… though that might just be personal, and not related to Taln.
L: And who could blame her, really.
A: Exactly my thought.
L: So, now we’re left with the question of how the Ghostbloods figured out where Taln was, since they and Amaram (who, reminder, is affiliated with the Sons of Honor) certainly aren’t on the best of terms. I suspect this is a mystery that will either be answered at a later date or not at all.
A: A little research tells me that when Ash finds Taln (much later in the book), he’s in the camp used by Amaram’s army while they were helping to rebuild Thaylen City.
L: Right, but my question was how the Ghostbloods found out where Amaram was keeping him, savvy? I suspect it’s just your plain standard espionage.
A: Well, since Iyatil saw Amaram absconding with Taln, the first place to look would always be “wherever Amaram is,” I’d guess.
L: Which really makes Amaram even more stupid, doesn’t it? Ugh. I despise him. Though in this case I guess I’d rather that Mraize have poor Taln than Amaram…
A: As much as I don’t trust Mraize, he seems to be marginally better stuff than Amaram, anyway! In Part One, Mraize was working “for” Ialai as a guard, trying to figure out what Sadeas was up to. He might even have seen Taln in Urithiru. That’s a bizarre thought.
L: So what, exactly, are the Ghostbloods up to here? Their primary objective is hunting information on the Desolations, right? Well… now they’ve got Ash, one of the Heralds, who presumably has more information about the Desolations than anyone other than another Herald. Why bother siccing her on Taln? Why not question her on everything they need to know? They must have another motive.
A: I am so baffled by the Ghostbloods sometimes. I don’t know what they’re up to, but it seems to involve the Heralds. Ash, while certainly a nutcase, seems to be slightly more sane—or at least coherent—than either Taln or Jezrien. Nale is coherent, though his moral compass seems to have gone ‘round the twist, and Ishar is having delusions of godhood. Whatever the Ghostbloods are up to, it seems that maybe the ability to communicate with Taln is a big part of their need, so Ash might be their best means to that end. Are they trying to reestablish the Oathpact? Or trying to figure out how it relates to whatever is keeping Odium contained? Here’s an alternate scary thought: What if the Ghostbloods are all about trying to free Odium, and they’re going about it by methodically trying to determine how he’s bound so they can undo it?
Flora & Fauna
“How can they bond spren, Ancient One?” she asked to Subservience. “Humans don’t… you know…”
“So timid,” he said to Ridicule. “Why is mentioning gemhearts so difficult?”
“They are sacred and personal.” Listener gemhearts were not gaudy or ostentatious, like those of greatshells. Clouded white, almost the color of bone, they were beautiful, intimate things.
L: This is really cool. I wonder if greatshells could bond spren as well?
A: My assumption is that they do, but it doesn’t have quite the same effect since they aren’t sapient. (Or… are they?) Sanderson has said that the enormous creatures can only exist because of a symbiosis with spren, which sounds a lot like a bond IMO!
Places & Peoples
Whenever she encountered things like this, she had to remind herself forcefully that the Alethi being technologically superior did not make them culturally superior.
L: Very true. Though I wonder what, in Venli’s mind, constitutes cultural superiority? Art? Tradition? Ethics?
A: I’m betting she doesn’t have a definition—she just doesn’t want to think of herself as inferior! I’m reasonably sure that the ancient Singers had a vibrant culture that may well have been superior to the human culture in some ways, no matter how you define cultural superiority. At the moment, however, they have virtually no culture at all; they’re rebuilding it from the ground up. But to contradict myself a little, she does think that the creation of beautiful art is worth a lot.
AP: It’s a squishy area to declare one culture superior to another. Different cultures have different core values, and while those can come into conflict, it doesn’t always mean one is better or worse than the other. Obviously sometimes they are, like when one suggests “exterminate all humans.” But values like work/leisure balance are morally neutral. What she is facing here is the effective extinction of the listener culture. As the only remaining listener (that she knows of), it’s up to her to attempt to pass on the culture. Which she does slightly later when instructing the Alethi listener, who has completely adopted the human Alethi culture, down to the impractical dress!
Could they really exterminate the people who had created such beautiful and delicate swirls in the glass?
A: The Fused just told her that their people will never be safe on Roshar so long as humans exist, and therefore the humans must all be destroyed. While she has no way of knowing what creativity her own people may eventually be capable of—or were, in the past—something in her recognizes beauty, and instinctively respects the person and the culture capable of creating it.
But did they know how to relax the fibers of a stubborn seasilk dress by returning it to a warm brine, then restore its natural softness by rinsing it and brushing with the grain?
A: This is a fun little world-building interjection. I can’t help wondering what seasilk is made from, and I love the idea that returning it to salt water is part of caring for the fabric.
AP: Some sort of fibrous sea plant, I would assume. Makes me want to figure out what a real world equivalent could be!
Stone buildings and reinforced towers. Marvels and wonders. … Now, smoke rose in patches throughout the city, and many of the guard towers had been shattered. The city gates lay broken. Kholinar, it seemed, had been conquered.
A: Because we needed the reminder…
Weighty Words
“It… shocked us when it first happened,” Rine eventually said. “Humans don’t have gemhearts. How could they bond spren? It was unnatural. Yet somehow, their bond was more powerful than ours.”
L: My crackpot theory is that this has to do with the friendships/partnerships the humans are making with their spren. While the Singers are trapping them and using their powers, the humans are forming more of an equal partnership. It makes sense that the spren would be giving them more power if they’re not fighting against being constrained. However… like I said, crackpot theory. Ulim doesn’t seem too upset about his kind being trapped in gemhearts, so I might be way off.
A: As I understand it—and I may well be wrong—the spren aren’t trapped in gemhearts in quite the same way as they’re trapped in fabrials, but in both cases they are mostly the lesser spren and don’t seem to care. I think that’s for the common Singers, though; when you get to the Regals, the spren might be a higher level. At least, they can grant Surges, so that seems to be different from the “ordinary” spren.
I can see two differences between the Regal bond and the Knight Radiant bond, at this point. One is the sapience of the spren itself: We know the spren “families” that form the Knight Radiant orders are independent beings, at least in the Cognitive Realm, and as far as we know, they are the only truly sapient spren. If that’s the case, the Regals may be bonding lesser spren which give them the ability to control Surges like Gravitation or Connection, though perhaps only one Surge at a time. The other difference, which I can’t help thinking must be significant, is the difference between a gemheart bond and a soul bond. The gemheart is a natural part of the Singer’s body, and the bond may be mostly physical. For a Radiant, the soul itself must be open to a bond, and I think that kind of bond must be stronger and more pervasive of one’s entire being.
Well, I may be completely wrong on this, but I sure hope we learn more! With the next book’s focus on Eshonai and Venli, there’s a good chance.
Cosmere Connections
“Is that my Azish cavalrylord’s suit?”
“Um… yes…”
“You got the aether out of it?”
L: Oooooh interesting! What’s he been up to where he’d come in contact with aether? All I really know about it is from the title of Aether of Night, one of Sanderson’s early (unreleased) books.
A: And all I can remember is that I had trouble wrapping my head around exactly what an aether was. Guess it’s time to go back and read that again, even if it’s not canon!
AP: Thanks for the reminder! I was at a total loss about the reference.
A Scrupulous Study of Spren
The little spren rose from where it had been hiding among the light. It looked like a comet when it moved, though sitting still—as it did now—it only glowed like a spark.
It pulsed, sending off a ring of light that dissipated like glowing smoke.
L: Timbre is really adorable. I can’t wait to see what kind of personality it winds up having.
A: She’s certainly a curious one, and also very stubborn. I think I like her.
“Are you one of them?” she asked softly. “The spren that move in the sky some nights?”
A: We have fairly solid hints that Timbre is one of the Reacher spren, the ones who form Willshaper bonds. Now I wonder… are their “cousin” spren the starspren we’ve seen mentioned here and there? I think that would be awesome.
The spren peeked out, then pulsed in a quick blinking succession.
That’s Curiosity, she thought, recognizing the rhythm.
L: I wonder if Timbre only knows the rhythms because it’s spent so much time around Eshonai and Venli, or if it’s something that all the spren intrinsically know/understand.
A: I’m going with the latter. I think that the spren which belong to Roshar inherently know the rhythms of the world.
AP: I agree, I think they understand the rhythms. It makes me wonder about communication though. Is this unique to Reacher spren? Do Syl and Pattern speak Alethi because their bonded humans do? Is Timbre pulsing to the rhythms instead because Venli is a singer?
She hummed it to herself, then hesitated. Curiosity was an old rhythm. Like … Amusement, which she’d attuned moments ago. She could hear the normal rhythms again.
She looked at the little spren. “Is this your doing?” she demanded to Irritation.It shrank, but pulsed to Resolve.
A: I find this absolutely fascinating. This little spren seems determined to help Venli reconnect with the “normal rhythms”—which is an interesting contrast to the way Venli had just earlier referred to those same rhythms as old and inferior. Somehow, the spren is able to affect Venli in spite of herself, reconnecting her to her home world and overriding (some of) Odium’s influence. The stubborn resolution of this one little spren seems poised to have an enormous effect on the upcoming conflict.
Quality Quotations
- The end of the world could come, but that would only mean more bloodstains to wash.
The next interlude (Sheler) is quite short, so we’ll be tackling it and Venli’s third one (Her Reward) together next week. As always, join us in the comments below for more discussion and theory-crafting!
Alice is currently hanging out in Montana, again. Family time is good time.
Lyndsey is back on FFXIV after a three year hiatus, on the Famfrit server. If you’re an aspiring author, a cosplayer, or just like geeky content, follow her work on Facebook or Instagram.
Aubree is trying not to over analyze soap and dye combinations to make real world analogs…but the slugs could totally be related to murex purple…
“Ash, while certainly a nutcase” What has Ash done to confirm this? I know she destroys her likenesses but I don’t consider that necessarily crazy behavior.
I believe Brandon said Parsh minds are partly in the cognitive realm (which is why they can see spren), which would explain why spren get less out of a bond with them vs humans. Remember the epigraph Listener song about them being broth vs humans as meat, as far as spren bonds are concerned.
I can see comments and log in again! That two weeks was harrowing. (May have even cracked my soul web enough for a spren to get in there.) As much as I hated Venli in Words of Radiance, I’m very excited to see her try to fill Eshonai’s shoes in future books. The singer/spren dynamic is really intriguing.
Yaaaay Interludes!
If offered to me by a force of evil (or non-evil), the ability to speak and understand all languages would be very tempting. Though there would probably be limits on what I was willing to do wirh it.
I recall with amusement our long-ago discussion of the Worldhopping Pants. X-D
There is a liquid called aether in real life, a clear, sweet-smelling chemical that is quite flammable. I suspect that, as Aethers aren’t present on Roshar, save only the crystal seen in Words of Radiance which is patently not liquid and therefore not staining, this chemical is what Mraize is referring to. (I also suspect that, as such a clear chemical would leave no worse a stain than water, and the smell would wear off over time, Mem’s bonus was an excuse to get her out of the room, and reward her for her part in baiting the Herald)
Sea silk is a real thing in our world, made from fibers secreted by a Mediterranean clam. It’s a dying art.
I would like some help here.
If Aether of Night is unreleased, how are people reading it?
Where have we heard of “Reacher” spren by that name?
I have consumed everything Sanderson’s published in the Cosmere except White Sand, but every time I read discussion of his books here things like this come up–another is the discussion of the “Sibling” repeatedly.
Am I that forgetful?
Do I just need to go to the wiki and read all the Word of Brandon?
@7 From what I understand, if you sign up for a newsletter, you can get a pdf of Aether of Night. Or you could for a while. I haven’t done it, though I am interested in reading it. Anyone want to clarify?
I believe we get the term “reacher” spren in the next part when they are in shadesmar. I don’t think it has been confirmed that Timbre is one of those yet – but it seems like a very logical/sound theory.
Sibling was spoken of mostly in part 1 of this book by the Stormfather as being a spren that was hurt by the knights and Dalinar needs to leave alone and seems to indicate it was one of the three spren bonded by the three potential bondsmiths. The epigraphs from part 2 also referred to the Sibling and seemed to connect it to Urithiru. So for that one, I think it is just forgetfulness, but understandable as they were small references. But us theorizers love catching those small tidbits and running with them.
@7 Brandon used to email Aether of Night and the text version of White Sand available to fans. They are still available, just in a different way. From his Contact page:
You’ll see Reachers when we get to Ico’s ship later in this book.
The Sibling has been mentioned in the books, but quite mysteriously. We have theories.
You can always check out the Coppermind wiki if you want. I tend to lost track of time if I do…
Is there any significance to the pattern of the heralds in Interlude 8? Usually they are symmetrical (1-2 2-1) but here they are not (1-2 1-2).
Brandon talked about this at one of his appearances that i attended. Sea silk is real, and he liked it so much when he heard about it that he incorporated it into this world. Like “regular” silk it’s an animal product, the fibers used to anchor a type of clam to the substrate.
A couple of quick notes:
Alice, the Listeners never lost the knowledge of how to change into mateform:
We don’t even know if the other forms that the Listeners could assume are capable of reproduction – just because the slaveform was, doesn’t mean that proper spren-induced forms would have been. Certainly, androgynous femalen body should have made things like pregnancy and birth more difficult, and we know that they don’t have any sexual urges in those other forms. Eshonai ruminated at length at how inconvenient it must be to have them all the time. It looks like the Last Legion were incapable of taking any other forms on their own by the time they fled – they didn’t keep to dullform and mateform to avoid attracting attention after Bo-Ado-Mishram was captured, but because they didn’t know how to change into anything else.
As to the Ghostbloods looking for information about the past from the Heralds – I see no reason to think that they were hoping to get something from Taln, specifically, but they knew that his location would be a powerful bargaining chip to get Ash herself to trade them information. She is one of the less addled and dangerous Heralds, after all. It isn’t like they could get Nale to tell them anything, even though I strongly suspect that he (and Ishar) knows more about how the Oathpact functioned after their desertion than any other Herald. Well, the scholarly Heralds may have been involved at the planning stage of their betrayal as well and may have some ideas about what was happening, but Nale specifically mentioned some “measures” that he and Ishar took to prevent a Desolation happening ever again and while they are both quite crazy, there may be a method to their madness.
Oh, and now for something completely different:
Given the safehand thing, how is it even possible for there to be professional washerwomen in Vorin countries? Considering that they do it publicly in this interlude? Shouldn’t they be professional laundrymen like in Ancient Rome? Sanderson really didn’t completely think trhough all the implications of women having to always wear a glove, methinks. This also applies to Lirin as a surgeon somehow having a female apprentice now – can you imagine all the filfth that she would be inadverently bringing into wounds on her glove? It is much easier to desinfect skin than cloth or leather and it isn’t like they have latex…
Technically, even if Thude and the other Listeners who refused Stormform did not survive the clash of the Everstorm and Highstorm, Rlain is still alive. Venli would not know that, however. FWIIW, I do think that Thude and those Listeners are still alive.
Theory time. I have no textual proof to support this theory, but here goes. It has been theorized that Odium is not the true antagonist of the Cosmere. Or at least, he will not be the main antagonist for the second 5 book series. If this is the case, then I think the Ghostbloods are positioning themselves for that events which will arise when they new antagonist reveals him/her/itself. Maybe, the Ghostbloods will be this new antagonist. As with Hoid, they may be playing the long game. I also think they want some knowledge that the Heralds have.
It would help to have some PoVs from Mraize. But I doubt we will get any in the next two books. I think Brandon wants there to be mystery around Mraize and the Ghostbloods. Sometimes, that can be ruined by peering into a character’s thoughts.
But what I do want, and hope for, is that if Ash interacts with Team Dalinar (and Ash and Taln may become long-term guests of Jasnah), then I hope she has some one on one conversations with Shallan. If they start to trust each other, maybe Ash can inform Shallan (and by extension, the reader) of the backstory of the Ghostbloods. Somehow, even in her current state, I doubt Ash is oblivious to the goings-on in the world and may have known of the Ghostbloods before; even if she has no clue who Mraize is.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
1. John: I think later Ash POV confirms her insanity.
“Ten figures ringed the bowl. Her fingers itched. She couldn’t move on, no matter how desperate her task, until she’d done it.
She seized the bowl and turned it until she found the woman depicting her, marked by the iconography of the brush and the mask … She pulled our her knife and sawed at the metal until she’d managed to scratch out the face. Good enough. Good enough.
…
She pushed into the tent, forcibly keeping herself from looking at the rug in case it bore depictions of the Heralds.” Oathbringer Ch. 117
It’s an unhealthy obsessive-compulsive issue with her.
Ether was used as an anesthetic in the past. Another use of the word is as the fifth element or the historical idea of luminiferous ether.
@several – Despite the historical use of the term “aether” and its various meanings, it seems odd to look for those uses when there’s a Cosmere usage that fits the context far better. It’s not published, no, but it is and has been available in a rough form for many years. I don’t see Sanderson suddenly deciding to use such an obscure term and expect his readers to turn to a different definition. It’s not like this is anything but a little Easter egg comment on Mraize’s Cosmere collection, like the vial of pale sand, the chicken on his shoulder, and so on.
Odium has been fighting and scheming all along but isn’t he much more desparate now since the Fused as losing their minds? Or can he make new fused?
So here we are: the Fused are crazy, the Heralds are crazy. Both sides could have their plans disrupted in a terrible way by that craziness.
I’ve gotten lost: is Odium one of the “old gods” the listeners escaped from?
@13 “Theory time. I have no textual proof to support this theory, but here goes. It has been theorized that Odium is not the true antagonist of the Cosmere. Or at least, he will not be the main antagonist for the second 5 book series. If this is the case, then I think the Ghostbloods are positioning themselves for that events which will arise when they new antagonist reveals him/her/itself. Maybe, the Ghostbloods will be this new antagonist. As with Hoid, they may be playing the long game. I also think they want some knowledge that the Heralds have.”
My money is on Cultivation. Who plays a better long game than someone with an intent practically synonymous with it.
@14 I know about her obsession with destroying her likeness, I just don’t know if I’d use nutcase to describe her because of it. She seems more like she has issues when compared to some other heralds who seem full blown crazy.
@12 Isilel
There’s no reason the washerwomen couldn’t be wearing gloves. They wouldn’t interfere with the job and would maintain modesty.
Waterproof gloves would work. Water-permeable gloves, which would get soaked with washing fluids and whatever substances the wearer was washing out of the laundry? Doesn’t sound as feasible.
@12 makes a good point about Lirin taking on a female apprentice. That doesn’t seem likely. So my mind jumps to Brandon’s usual twists. This apprentice has an air of mystery.
I missed last week and this week we are reading the interludes. As usual, I do not have much to say about them except perhaps sharing my concerns over the next book featuring a Parshendi-centric narrative.
I definitely struggle immersing myself within Parshendi characters’ viewpoints due to the need to point out which rhythm they are attuning themselves to every now and then. While an interesting element to implement within a fictional race, I find the resulting narrative is difficult to sink into, at least it is the case for me. Hence, I find my level of excitement over RoW to be very low… I wish I could anticipate this book with more passion than I currently am, but I just do not feel very strongly about a book not focusing on the characters I care and love. Other authors have been known to write outlier books focusing on another set of characters entirely. Based on my experience, it is either a do or a disaster, so I find it hard to emotionally engage myself in a book which may turn out being tedious to read.
This week we also saw Ash… and the increasingly obvious signs she will indeed become a Dustbringer. While having a character change order actually is an interesting narrative, I find this might have been one to work better without foreshadowing so long in advance. Right now, I just do not care for Ash because I feel as if I already know where she is going as a character. It doesn’t help she is one of the least interesting Heralds, I would have preferred reading about Vedel or Chana, not Ash.
So on this sour note, I will cross my fingers and hope Brandon will leak some narrative elements, for RoW, which is going to spike my interest. On the bright side, not caring so much about the next installment of SA is allowing me to thoroughly enjoy reading other series.
Gepeto @22. Your post is not the first opining that Ash will eventually become a Dustbringer. You even state the text has “increasingly obvious signs she will indeed become a Dustbringer.” Maybe I am just oblivious to these type of hints, but no such clues jump out to me. What are some examples of said obvious signs?
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
@23: I would argue the fact she is a flashback character and the only Radiants not being featured within those are the Dustbringers is one very big clue. Technically, it isn’t impossible Brandon plans for a differently themed book by having the Lightweaver’s flashbacks assorted to another main character, currently unknown, and also a Dustbringer, but it seems too obvious he has plans for Ash. On top of the book structure, we witness Ash destroying statues of herself within WoK which is reminiscent of Dustbringers wanting to break things. In OB, we see her ripping open a painting of her.
Those seems like clues Ash is going to become a Dustbringer. Granted maybe they aren’t clues at all, but her narrative seems being built towards it.
What makes anyone think the apprentice surgeon is Vorin? Lirin would not, I think, mind working with a non-coreligionist.
(I haven’t reread that chapter–is she gloved?)
@goddessimho: the “Old Gods” seem to be the Fused, the Voidspren, the Unmade, and Odium. Like the (related) Horneaters, the Parsh appear to have had a broad definition of “god”.
@25 – She has yet to make an appearance. Knowing Brandon, there’s probably some kind of twist involved. I’m not sure how a non-Vorin apprentice would go over with the townfolk. Going ungloved would be like a woman going topless in public in America.
I love Mem. The real person and the character.
The real one is a fiber artist, like I am.
So the line about “the sound of horror, the sound of ripping cloth” – spoke to me.
It is amazing with how just a few pulse beats and words Sanderson made Timbre a character I cared about.
As for gloves and washing, part of me wonders if they would have to wear them. If all the washers are woman, and your hands are busy under water – they may not be required. When they leave the washing area, sure.
The rules seem a little more lax for lower status woman.
@22 “Feel the rhythm!” “Feel the rhyme!” “Get on up, it’s bobsle- I mean Parshendi time!”
I couldn’t resist the Cool Runnings shout out, what with you talking about the rythems and all
My initial thought on the surgeon’s apprentice is that she could be an aspiring Truthwatcher, using Illumination to mask her bare hand while using Progression to aid in healing. But this might be a bit too obvious. Waiting for the twist, as well.
I love the interludes – they’re kind of a breath of fresh air and aways provide a really interesting glimpse of the wider world.
I’m one of the ones looking forward to learning more about the Listener/Singer culture and history. I don’t know what makes something culturally ‘superior’, but I think her general point is that technology isn’t the only mark of a culture’s value.
@30 Lisamarie
I think what makes a culture “superior” is the insistence that it is so. This allows the “superior” culture to claim they are more “civilized” and justify anything they do to “lift up” the “inferior” culture. The consequences of this attitude have been seen throughout history.
The more of these rereads we do, the more convinced I am that the Spren bond with humans ins heavily weighted towards the cognitive and spiritual. The Parsh normally don’t have as strong a bond since it is mostly physical.
Also, just like a shard changes its wielder, so Preservation couldn’t attack Ruin, I think the Spren bond changes the knight as well. I think this explains Nale’s emotionlessness and will help explain the recreance and even Shallan’s abilities, were she is helping people become who they could be.
AeronaGreenjoy @20:
From what we have seen so far waterproof materials don’t exist on Roshar. IRL waterproof garments used to be made by covering them with oil, paint and/or tar, which, obviously, would be inapplicable to washerwomen’s gloves (or surgeon’s ones!), not to mention that given the nature of the substances and the work, they would wear off very quickly.
And just cloth gloves should result in permanent sores and rotting skin – iRL washerwomen’s hands used to become messed up anyway, but at least they could be dried for a time during the working day, while having a hand covered in cloth at all times would prevent that.
Not to mention how quickly the gloves themselves would be ruined and how for a working-class person in a realistic pre- or early industrial setting it would be a significant financial burden to constantly replace them.
Braid_Tug @27:
If they had been working in an enclosure, I may have agreed with you – though then they’d also probably have needed a guard to chase away peeping toms, but they were in the open. And when manually washing clothes and spreading/hanging them out to dry, your hands can’t be constantly under water, it just doesn’t work that way.
Sanderson is pretty good at letting his wordbuilding affect his societies in logical ways – which, unfortunately, few of SF and fantasy authors are, but “washerwomen” is one of these default assumptions that just slip in, even though in Vorin countries, like in Ancient Rome, professional laundry should have been a male occupation.
It is like in the first Mistborn trilogy (no spoilers!), there is this brutally oppressed slave class, which is treated very cruelly, yet at some point Sanderson writes how certain teenagers belonging to it were “too young for the factories” or “too young for the mines”, which makes no sense at all, because iRL before there were laws in place to require schooling for children “too young” would have been under 7!
Lisamarie @30:
I am with you! I find the Listeners and the singers very intriguing and can’t wait to learn more about them. And I still hope that Sanderson either introduces the missing Listener children – of whom there should logically be thousands, given the Listener numbers at the beginning of the war, or explains their absence in a convincing way.
@vulcronos
Nale is the only Herald to have formed a spren bond. (At least, that’s what he tells Szeth.) However, they all went mad in their various ways after millennia of torture.
@33 Isilel
I’d have to go back and reread Way of Kings, but the fact that the Weeping lasts months at a time would imply to me that some sort of waterproofing would be necessary. Otherwise, people would be walking around in soaking wet clothing for months, which seems unhealthy and unlikely.
@33: Yeah. In winter, when the air is dry here and my hands dry out, immersion in water makes them itch terribly, especially if it’s got things in it like soap, salt, or bleach. I wear rubber gloves to wash dishes in that season. I also wear fabric-lined rubber gloves while staffing the sea-creature touch tank at the museum where I volunteer, for protection from the water’s chill as well as its salt, but one glove sprang a leak and now my hand inside it is wet for the duration of the shift. Thankfully, the summer air is more humid so it’s not nearly as bad as it would be in winter. Washing laundry all day (or night, whichever).while wearing water-permeable gloves sounds horrible.
@carl
While true, all the heralds still had their own bonds as part of the Oathpact and at least a connection to the surges of the spren that would later form their order. Nale’s bond may have accelerated his decline, but I believe the Oathpact + torture would have an effect as well.
@RogerPavelle: the Weeping can’t last for “months” in the Earth sense. (Roshar has three moons.) I always thought of it as lasting weeks (say, up to 20 days), but I”m pretty sure it can’t be longer than that.
@AeronaGreenjoy: Hey, I had that job! I was one of the “museum teachers” at a museum in South Florida as an undergrad. The various petting zoo experiences were my specialty, me being a zoology major and all. I never got gloves, though, even for the tarantula-handling part. (For non-zoologists: tarantulas have hairs that can embed into mammalian skin and cause irritation. I turn out not to be sensitive to them.)
@38 Carl
Even if it is “only” 3 weeks, people would still need to go outside during heavy rains and would want as much protection from the wet as possible.
Haven’t had a chance to ring in yet, but a little side note. Shallan owned a waterproof satchel. Its mentioned on page 626 of Words of Radiance. So they certainly do have the technology to waterproof items.
@waterproof items
I also thought I read about waterproof materials in Kaladin’s flashbacks with Tien and during the march to the center of the Shattered Plains. However, oiled leather or waxed textiles are still not suitable for washerwomen’s gloves as somebody above pointed out already. Shallan’s satchel or the coats or umbrellas are not the same as latex gloves…
I am afraid that any answer to the water-proof gloves debate is going to be disappointing. Answer’s gonna be either:
– gloves are treated with special “chull slime” to be waterproof
– oopsie forgot about that
haha XD
@41 bird
Well rubber gloves became a thing because chemical irritants during surgery caused a rash on a surgeon’s wife. He then reached out to goodyear to make some. Rubber has been a thing for a very very long time long before this surgeon and the process of making it is simple enough that primitive cultures were able to do so. So if a person with a safe glove is going to worry about damaging their hands so often and so prevalent, then I personally don’t see a reason why someone wouldn’t do the same exact thing as the surgeon and say “hey lets make gloves out of this water resistant and flexible material”. Necessity is the mother of invention after all.
@42 Ulim
LOL
RogerPavelle @35:
There are places in nort-western Europe iRL where it can easily rain every day the whole day for weeks in autumn. Nevertheless, they had to deal with it by using the imperfect water-proofing of wax, oil, tar, felt, etc. none of which would be suitable for a washerwoman’s or a surgeon’s gloves.
Scáth @43:
Rubber only became known in Europe in 18th century! And we saw no evidence of rubber in the Stormlight Archive.
@44 Isilel
It didn’t become widely used and turned into gloves till the 18th century in Europe. But it was widely used and made to waterproof textiles in mesoamerica by the indigenous cultures for ages. And can you point to me proof that rubber does not exist in stormlight? Because I thought they lacked all waterproofing till I referenced Shallan?
@45 – Wasn’t there a Bridge Four interlude where they were all playing basketball between bridge runs?
As to my thoughts on the chapter…..
Love seeing new forms, even when they do not do anything as grandiose as changing gravitational pull, or creating illusions. I love seeing concepts manifesting in abilities and how they are employed. The additional world building showing stratification based on those abilities is great!
I do feel Venli’s pain as she begins to realize the physical and cultural death of the people she grew up with.
Watching the disconnect between generations (in this case Venli’s people and the awakened parsh), does bring a profound sense of loss due to miscommunication. Miscommunication being a prime cause of conflict in all cultures and time periods. The hostilities between Palestine and Israel being just one of many many such examples.
I have to give Mraize a lot of credit. It was a very clever trap that he laid using that artwork to lure Ash.
I theorize that the Ghostbloods are kind of the “anti” 17th shard. Whereas the 17th shard seeks to learn and gain information for knowledge, it seems to me the Ghostbloods seek to learn and gain information for power.
Timbre is adorable and incredibly brave all at the same time. I would love to see her in the cognitive realm as well.
Regarding Seasilk, here is an interesting WoB
EHyde
I was wondering, on Roshar, what sort of plants and animals do they use for fabrics, because they don’t have a lot of woolly animals and the plants are different?
Brandon Sanderson
Most of them are plant-based. I think I’ve mentioned one of the plants. Theirs are plant-based.
EHyde
They have silk though, right?
Brandon Sanderson
Yes. It is seasilk, you actually grow it in the water. It’s pretty awesome. It comes from the coasts.
EHyde
So they don’t have anything like our silk, then?
Brandon Sanderson
If you looked at it, you would call that silk, but it is being produced in a very different way.
EHyde
But our silk comes from insect cocoons, and they have a lot of that sort of thing, but they don’t use it for fiber at all?
Brandon Sanderson
Insect cocoons on Roshar are either, they melt in water and are tied to the highstorm cycle, or they have stone in them. So they don’t work really well for textiles. There are certain rockbuds you can shred the inside of the shell and get a textile from them, there’s seasilk which you grow out in the ocean, and there are other plants of a similar nature.
@46 Austin
I cannot seem to locate it currently, but I will definitely check! Thanks!
@47 – I was making a joke…or are you making a joke? Lol, I can’t tell.
@48 Austin
and that would probably be the reason why I could not find it lol
Okay, wait, Aren’t Listener bones red?
@50 nightheron
Theres a WoB for that! lol
Questioner
I was wondering, in Stormlight, what kind of gem the [singer] gemhearts were, or do they just, do they hold Stormlight well?
Brandon Sanderson
So, this is a good question. This is one that people have been asking me since the first book, if they had one, and I’ve finally kind of confirmed it in book three. So the reason people don’t think [singers] have a gemheart is it is milky white, and looks like bone.
Questioner
But aren’t their bones red?
Brandon Sanderson
Their bones, well– Their bones are red– not completely. If you’re going to pull out the bone, what you’re going to see– I’ll explain it in the next book. So what you’re going to do is, if you break open the bone, you’re going to find this white– It’s not marrow but it is, yeah I guess it’s marrow. Anyway at the center kind of in their sternum there is a gemheart there, but it is fused to the bone and it is grown into the bone, and you have to kind of snap it open and find it inside, and it kind of just looks like marrow, but there’s a gemheart in there. And it kind of relates to some stuff in Dragonsteel that I’m not gonna get into. But you’ll see in the next books. But there’s a good reason people just don’t think that [singers] have a gemheart.
Questioner
So they must not glow much then, I’m assuming.
Brandon Sanderson
Yeah, well, it’s surrounded by bone. So it’s a different special thing. We’ll bring it out in the following books. It might not be the next one.
https://wob.coppermind.net/events/324/#e9353
@Scáth
Heh. Okay, I guess Venli just didn’t explain very well about inner bone. Thanks for the WOB.
@52 nightheron
Lol, no problem
Can you even imagine the slaughter if the Alethi thought they could use the Parsh gem hearts the same as the great shell gem hearts? It does make me wonder if they (the hearts) would give off their own form of investeture, separate from a living Parshendi.
The time I felt the most sadness for Venli was when the Fused took over her husband and her friends and she realized they were really gone. They had all been so excited thinking they were bonding, not being replaced.
The fact that Sanderson has the inner workings of their bones all worked out just makes me in awe once again. I always appreciate your WoB contributions!
@54 goddessimho
So its in a WoB that I have had trouble locating before, so till I can pull it up, take this with a grain of salt, but I recall a WoB where Brandon states that is part of the reason why the Parshendi are so protective of their dead, and personal about their gemhearts. That humans once upon a time did harvest the parshendi gemhearts. With the knowledge of it lost, the parsh weren’t keen on them finding out again.
@55 Lisamarie
Glad to help, and I whole heartily agree. The level of work he puts into his novels is amazing!
I just got caught up on my rereading after a pause while I was reading the Hugo nominees.
Another parallel: Mraize’s relationship with his washerwoman is clearly meant to parallel Adolin’s with his tailor. They both care a lot about their appearance, and they both have what seems like an anomalously great respect for the skills of these women.
Which makes me wonder if Ash is a parallel with Azure/Vivenna (both worldhopping beings, both Slivers[1] …), but that’s probably just me reaching.
[1]Yes, Vivenna is a Sliver. She has a partial Returned Breath, and by this point in her personal timeline she has clearly developed it beyond her beginner status in Warbreaker. She might be the weakest Splinter of Endowment in the worlds, but she is one.
@10 RogerPavelle
“Is there any significance to the pattern of the heralds in Interlude 8? Usually they are symmetrical (1-2 2-1) but here they are not (1-2 1-2).”
I’ve been waiting for the re-read of this interlude to see if the ladies would catch that. IIRC, this is the only chapter in the entire series to be 1-2-1-2 instead of 1-2-2-1. Which heralds are represented here? Ash, who is present, and Chana, the ‘patron saint’ of the Releasers, whom Ash is theorized to join. I’m taking it as confirmation that Ash has become, is becoming, or will become a Dustbringer ;D